Salute to Enola Gay crew

Discussion in 'MKJ Off-Topic' started by Troy70, Aug 5, 2020.

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  2. Merlin4SC

    Merlin4SC Junior Member


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    #3
    OT:

    I'm disgusted by the board's response so I am done talking to opinionated ignorant people on this post who want to be comfortable with their lasting propaganda. Maybe not enough IR majors who studied that matter on here, but regardless it is not worth my time to educate people. Let ignorance be bliss, but don't celebrate the horrible dates of 06AUG and 09AUG. I think the worst stat of the war was that 75% of Japanese deaths were civilians; 2,150,000+ no one really knows the grand total, along with US civilians killed by Japan being the 49 [22 of whom were Japanese ex-pats] on Oahu plus whatever merchant mariners there may have been on cargo ships, though Japanese subs never did any real damage beyond the USS Wasp. Those are the most staggeringly lopsided stats the world will ever know...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  3. Peete2Affholter

    Peete2Affholter Junior Member


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    #4
    Japan's foreign policy prior to WW2, like that of basically any other country, was geared towards its own self-interest. They were nominally on the side of the Allies in the Great War only because they saw a very easy opportunity to snap up German possessions in the Pacific while the Germans were preoccupied by the events in Europe as well as the British fleet in the Pacific.

    The military junta that controlled Japan during the period leading up to the war was just as ruinous to the average Japanese as the Nazis were to the average German. Anyone who didn't go along with the program was imprisoned or executed.
     
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  4. AMLTrojan

    AMLTrojan Junior Member


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    #5
    Nice ramble but I'll trust the wisdom of a true military historian on this one:

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/75-years-atomic-bomb-victor-davis-hanson
     
  5. AMLTrojan

    AMLTrojan Junior Member


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    #6
    Another great article:

    https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/06/75-years-later-its-clear-truman-was-right-to-drop-the-atomic-bomb/

    Let this sink in:

    "Chilling proof of the carnage expected to follow an amphibious invasion of Japan exists in the more than 495,000 Purple Heart medals made in anticipation of Operation Downfall’s casualties. While the plan scheduled for November 1, 1945, was never required, the amassed stock of medals was so vast that soldiers injured in the recent Afghanistan and Iraq wars received Purple Hearts from the very same stockpile meant for Japan in 1945."

    My brother-in-law has one of those Purple Hearts. He just turned 37.
     
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  6. EugeneTrojan

    EugeneTrojan Junior Member


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    #7
    Not football related. Move to OT board
     
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  7. J4SC75

    J4SC75 Junior Member


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    #8
    Salute to the Enola Gay crew for doing their duty, but shame on those that had them obliterate thousands of innocent women, children, the elderly...and the way they died was torture. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are black marks for us in history, nothing to celebrate.
     
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  8. heyrev

    heyrev Junior Member


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    #9
    Gosh, didn’t know Howard Zinn was a poster here! Welcome to the board!
     
  9. bob c in az

    bob c in az Junior Member


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    #10
    Just to jog your memory.
    1) When the enola gay dropped the first atom bomb the Japanese army had 5.5million men under arms(navy and air were out of the battle):
    a) 2.5 million on the home islands
    b) 2.0 million in china/korea/manchuria
    c) 1.0 million in hongkong/singapore/burma/indochina/philipines/dutch east indies/misc pacific islands
    2) Under the conditions you discribe 80,000 plus japanese soldiers caused 70,000 US casualties on Okinawa over a three month period until defeated.
    3) As you note LeMay caused 300,000 civilian deaths bombing the japanese home islands. What you didn't note was that the bombing hardly caused any movement twards surrender on the part of the japanese. It started with firebombing of toyko on March 9 and continued until LeMay ran out of fire bombs in late june. What you don't mention is that absent surrender on the part of japan US plans were to move a large fraction of the European bomber force to Oklnawa, 300 miles from the home islands so the the bombing would greatly intensify over rest of the year.

    Having said all the above I conclude that, absent the shock caused by the Abombs, any of the other options available to Truman would have resulted in at least 10 times the civilian casualties caused by Hiroshima and Nagasaki completely independent of the military casualties invasion/blockade/contin uing bombardment. And by civilians I mean japanese AND Chinese/Korean/Manchurian/Philipins/malay/Viet/LaoCambodian/Melanese/etc
     
  10. AMLTrojan

    AMLTrojan Junior Member


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    #11
    Japanese military was prepared to sacrifice 20M defending their homeland. Truman asked them to come to the table, they had no interest. Uprooting Japan from their possessions and occupations would've made Okinawa look like a bee sting in comparison. Plus the bomb completely altered the Soviets' postwar plans to occupy and keep Iran, Eastern Europe, and Manchuria.

    In hindsight it wasn't the right call, it was the only call.
     
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  11. SCnAZ

    SCnAZ Junior Member


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    #12
    However you feel about what happened, you can’t please everyone on this or any other issue. It’s done and over with, let’s move on, time has.
     
  12. bob c in az

    bob c in az Junior Member


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    #13
    I can can give you a general outline about what the options were:
    1) Invade the japanese home islands. This was the Army/Marshal/MacArthur's choice
    2) Continue the aerial bombardment with conventional munitions. This was Hap Arnolds choice
    3) Continue and tighten the naval blockade. This was King/Nimitz/Leahey choice

    All of these options would have included the Russians being involved in the in finising off Japan and would have involved replays of what the japanese did in Manila only multiplied by factors of ten in china/hong kong/singapore/hanoi/rangoon/etc. All of this in addition to what would have happened to the civilian population in japan as a result.

    One could argue that instead of being the worst thing to happen in history it was the best that happened.
     
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  13. AMLTrojan

    AMLTrojan Junior Member


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    #14
    Um, Merlin, somehow you managed to scroll past my post that linked to an article discussing exactly that topic. Along with another post with a linked article that examined the positives and negatives decision taken and found the former outweighed the latter.

    So, not sure if you're incompetent or a troll, but, not a good look either way.
     
  14. bob c in az

    bob c in az Junior Member


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    #15
    Other options? Such as having the Japanese envoy seek out Stalin so the that he would broker a peace deal? You say you are not a troll but fail to mention 150000+military prisioners(both US and English/colonial) who would have been summarily executed upon invasion of the home islands. When I mention the civilian in other asian countrys who will likely die in a prolonger conflict you forget the 20-25 million defensless asian civilians already killed by the Japanses militery. Don't post here again
     
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  15. AMLTrojan

    AMLTrojan Junior Member


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    #16
    Hundreds of thousands more would've died in continued firebombing, even more combined with naval blockades, and the Japanese still wouldn't have surrendered.

    Millions would've died in an invasion, with the Japanese military expecting us to settle for a stalemate instead of total surrender.

    With Hitler gone, the Soviets were itching to jump in and take Manchuria, Korea, and the northern-most Japanese islands. Tell me how a Soviet-dominated Japan would've turned out compared to what the U.S. accomplished there post-war. How many Japanese military and industrial leaders would've been executed or shipped straight to gulags? Millions, or tens of millions?

    The atomic weapons were successful not because of their death toll. Records show the Japanese military was ready to sustain 10x to 100x more losses to protect their homeland. No, the bombs literally shocked and awed the Emperor to fear for the utter devastation that could happen to the rest of his country if we had more bombs like that, so he ordered the military to utterly surrender.
     
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  16. PacTrojan

    PacTrojan Junior Member


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    #17
    The History Channel has a new documentary on

    https://www.history.com/specials/hiroshima-75-years-later

    It's pretty accurate with interview recordings by those involved and point out...

    "By the time of the Trinity test, the Allied powers had already defeated Germany in Europe. Japan, however, vowed to fight to the bitter end in the Pacific, despite clear indications (as early as 1944) that they had little chance of winning. In fact, between mid-April 1945 (when President Harry Truman took office) and mid-July, Japanese forces inflicted Allied casualties totaling nearly half those suffered in three full years of war in the Pacific, proving that Japan had become even more deadly when faced with defeat. In late July, Japan’s militarist government rejected the Allied demand for surrender put forth in the Potsdam Declaration, which threatened the Japanese with “prompt and utter destruction” if they refused.

    General Douglas MacArthur and other top military commanders favored continuing the conventional bombing of Japan already in effect and following up with a massive invasion, codenamed “Operation Downfall.” They advised Truman that such an invasion would result in U.S. casualties of up to 1 million. In order to avoid such a high casualty rate, Truman decided–over the moral reservations of Secretary of War Henry Stimson, General Dwight Eisenhower and a number of the Manhattan Project scientists–to use the atomic bomb in the hopes of bringing the war to a quick end. Proponents of the A-bomb—such as James Byrnes, Truman’s secretary of state—believed that its devastating power would not only end the war, but also put the U.S. in a dominant position to determine the course of the postwar world."
    One of the overlooked bits of trivia is that the bomb design dropped on Hiroshima was never tested, that's how much confidence the scientists had in it as it used Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU), which was incredible difficult to obtain by enriching natural uranium. Most today do not know that Japan also had an advance A-Bomb program underway during the war. The lab was seriously damaged during a bombing raid on Tokyo. The head of the lab - Dr. Yoshio Nishina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Nishina) - had visited UC Berkley and its Radiation Laboratory lead by E.O Lawrence in the 1930s. He was attempting to use Lawrence's cyclotron, which Japan had purchased the plans, as the basis for enriching uranium - something it could not accomplish - and which should not be confused with what the US did successfully achieve in Oak Ridge Tennessee at Y-12 and K-25 Plants using gaseous diffusion and massive amounts of centrifuges. Immediately after the Hiroshima bombing Japanese nuclear scientists were in the city and knew it was an Atomic bomb and HEU. They also knew how hard it was to make HEU and advised the Japanese military command that the US could not have many of these bombs. When Nagasaki was hit several days later with a Plutonium based bomb, with Pu produced in a reactor in Richland Washington, they had to admit to the Japanese leadership that they had no idea how many Atomic bombs the US might have available (the real answer was none as the needed HEU and Pu would not be sufficient until around December 1945). This assessment by the Japanese scientific community played a critical role in the Emperor's decision for unconditional surrender.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  17. SGVFlip

    SGVFlip Points Member


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    #18
    My mother was a little girl during WW2, lost her mother due to having no access do medical supplies during the Japanese occupation...my father, after migrating to the US, and bringing us over would never buy Japanese made cars, etc...

    My grandfather was the village chief of our area during the war, and had to deal with the occupying forces...this was at a time when many of the young man, and boys, took up arms and joined the guerilla forces to fight them....

    So I can say my family had first hand experience with the horrors of that war.

    With that said, weve.moved on and realized that those responsible are long gone...

    Happy that the Japanese are our allies..
     
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  18. PacTrojan

    PacTrojan Junior Member


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    #19
    Also the best book (and really a must read by anyone interested in this subject) is "The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes."

    From the publishers original 1995 release notes...

    "Here for the first time, in rich human, political, and scientific detail, is the complete story of how the bomb was developed, from the turn-of-the-century discovery of the vast energy locked inside the atom to the dropping of the first bombs on Japan.

    Few great discoveries have evolved so swiftly - or have been so misunderstood. From the theoretical discussions of nuclear energy to the bright glare of Trinity, there was a span of hardly more than 25 years. What began as merely an interesting speculative problem in physics grew into the Manhattan Project and then into the bomb with frightening rapidity, while scientists known only to their peers - Szilard, Teller, Oppenheimer, Bohr, Meitner, Fermi, Lawrence, and von Neumann - stepped from their ivory towers into the limelight.

    Richard Rhodes takes us on that journey step by step, minute by minute, and gives us the definitive story of man's most awesome discovery and invention. The Making of the Atomic Bomb has been compared in its sweep and importance to William L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It is at once a narrative tour de force and a document as powerful as its subject."​
     
  19. AMLTrojan

    AMLTrojan Junior Member


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    #20
    The Japanese, since 1945, have been an amazing model civilization, accomplishing awe-inspiring technological and economic feats, and capturing global hearts with their culture, from sushi to anime.

    Prior the that point, they established themselves as one of the most ruthless and implacable fighting forces to ever inhabit the planet. Their perfidy in conquest, their brutality with POWs and subjugated peoples, and their battlefield fanaticism are nigh incomprehensible to the armchair strategists and academic inquisitors blinded by the apocalyptic power of the U.S.'s atomic might. Had there been no Manhattan Project, the wartime deeds of the Japanese would in all likelihood be remembered and hated with far more vivid clarity. And though Americans have chosen to forgive and forget, I can tell you the Koreans and Chinese sure haven't.
     

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