Musings from Arledge: The Urban Meyer question, and answer

Discussion in 'GarryP's Trojan Huddle' started by ErikMcKinney, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. bremillard

    bremillard Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    128
    Nov 10, 2019
    #61
    If this is true we will be doomed to mediocrity and further discussion regarding a winning USC football team will be pointless. If you are correct, and you may well be, Meyer will not get put onto the USC payroll and I will have my Saturdays back forever.
     
    Islander 4 USC and gubo&palanka like this.
  2. bremillard

    bremillard Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    128
    Nov 10, 2019
    #62
    Honestly...USC football fans give not one fuck about any of this. We have been watching too many other schools clean our clocks for far too long now so if Urban Meyer was Jack the fuckin Ripper I would personally lay down the red carpet to Heritage Hall.
     
  3. K9Buck

    K9Buck Points Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2018
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    160
    Nov 10, 2019
    #63
    Ideology is black and white but life isn't.

    I believe that Urban and Shelly Meyer tried to help Zach and Courtney, as well as their two very young children. It's known that they both liked to drink and often had extreme arguments. One rumor was the Courtney showed up at an OSU practice and started screaming at Zach in front of the entire team. Courtney had a reputation as a "loose cannon". Later, Zach's lawyer would say that they were bad for one another.

    Should Meyer have FIRED Zach Smith at the first sign of marital discord in Columbus? Would that have helped Zach, Courtney and their two young children?

    For that matter, if a head coach hears of marital discord with one of his coaches, should the coach be fired? Or, if a spouse or former spouse accuses an assistant coach of something sinister, should the coach be fired even if there is no evidence to corroborate the charge?

    It's easy to say "Fire him!" when you're not intimately involved with the couple and their young children. As human beings, it's understandable that Urban and Shelly wanted to try and help Zach and Courtney and their young children. Sometimes, unfortunately, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Urban and Shelly got burned by a bitter, angry, scorned ex-wife who put her desire to hurt Zach and everyone associated with him over the interests of her and her own children.

    If Urban gets the job at USC and IF one of his coaches is ever accused of hitting a woman, even if there is ZERO evidence of anything, Urban may determine that he MUST fire the coach in question so as to avoid criticism from folks like Bill Plashke, and that is unfortunate.
     
  4. gubo&palanka

    gubo&palanka Points Member

    WeAreSc Member
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,880
    Likes Received:
    4,391
    Nov 10, 2019
    #64
     
  5. K9Buck

    K9Buck Points Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2018
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    160
    Nov 10, 2019
    #65
    God only knows what sordid details we would learn about the folks at the LA Times if they were seriously investigated.
     
    CrownoftheValley likes this.
  6. Rainman44

    Rainman44 Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    909
    Nov 10, 2019
    #66
    Interesting and good take. But the problem is that we are judging base on our respective views from 35,000ft ie, what we heard on TV or newspapers or internet. There is so much opinionated crap out there its hard for any of us to weave through it.

    I'm just trying to rationalize this topic myself. I totally appreciated Chris's article because he opened eyes wider to a number of things about the business and the history of Urban that haven't been discussed or debated here. My position is that USC has to do what is right for itself and not listen to others who don't have to own the results. Unpopular decisions are often indicative of making change. The safe road is just that.
     
    ConquerorSC likes this.
  7. Rainman44

    Rainman44 Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    909
    Nov 10, 2019
    #67
    Whether we like it or not, people will be swayed by the opinions coming from columnist of one of the largest newspaper companies in the world. Many will see it as the truth, and not even challenge it. Hence the need to speak out, provide other perspectives.
     
  8. TrojanFireHorse12

    TrojanFireHorse12 Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    3,898
    Likes Received:
    2,504
    Nov 10, 2019
    #68
    That's not up to her...and he was already apart of BOT. And he was life time regardless.
     
  9. Lyn the Duck

    Lyn the Duck Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    57
    Nov 10, 2019
    #69
    My point exactly. You proved it.
     
  10. DaFireMedic

    DaFireMedic Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    8,148
    Likes Received:
    12,316
    Nov 10, 2019
    #70
    Ok, you convinced me.
     
    CP619 likes this.
  11. flyfishintrojan

    flyfishintrojan Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,302
    Likes Received:
    3,760
    Nov 11, 2019
    #71
    Whoa. No one has said UM isn’t allowed to coach anywhere, just that he is a bad fit at USC. Now that is up to the Admin, is Meyer a bad fit? With a school that has as many scandals as USC, I think it is absolutely fair to bring his past actions up as they relate to USC and its scandal ridden recent history. Plashke and Hernandez are asking questions the good sportswriters should ask.

    Chris you are way off base here. You should instead be asking why USC has fallen so far that only one guy on the earth can right the SC ship. That is the big issue here. Quite frankly USC( if it is really still USC and everyone knows I question that) should have a short list of possible candidates that could right the ship. Helton isn’t the answer but why is only one guy with say an interesting resume the ONLY answer?
     
    ConquerorSC and uscvball like this.
  12. uscvball

    uscvball Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    11,460
    Likes Received:
    18,896
    Nov 11, 2019
    #72
    "Nobody else that USC could hire would even come close to his resume or likelihood of future success."

    Resume, sure. Likelihood of success? Absolutely no proof for that claim.

    "There is only one way to generate the additional revenues needed, and that is for USC’s football team to resume its place in the national spotlight."

    I agree that winning translates to money and that translates to better situations for all athletes....but come on. How did our other programs "survive" the sanctions? The other crappy hires? Your reasoning here is dramatic, not necessarily accurate.

    "USC can attract better students and more dollars for its facilities and programs with a successful football program."

    And yet, with some of the worst years of football under Helton, we have the lowest admission rate in USC's history. Just how much better does the student body need to be?

    "Protected them from what? Law enforcement? University discipline? If there is evidence of such activity, I haven’t seen it."

    "Florida recruited players with an edge, and the program paid in the court of public opinion when those players got in trouble, including arrests for gun charges and domestic assault. The team hated hearing about it, and the echoes grew into an inevitable distraction during the 2009 and 2010 seasons."
    https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/13660781/urban-meyer-tim-tebow-aaron-hernandez-percy-harvin-rise-fall-florida-gators

    "One of Aaron Hernandez's first official acts as a freshman football player for the Florida Gators was to sucker punch an employee at a Gainesville bar so hard that he ruptured the poor guy's ear drum....
    Hernandez was never criminally charged in the incident in which he ruptured the Gainesville bar employee's eardrum, nor was he given any significant punishment by UF.

    In another more serious case in 2007, he was reportedly never even questioned by police or his head coach even though he was a suspect in Gainesville shooting that left two men wounded, including one who was shot in the back of the head...When the Gainesville Sun's Pat Dooley asked Meyer, now the head coach at Ohio State, about the shooting incident four years ago, Meyer made it sound as if it was just a minor distraction. He told Dooley he was informed of the incident by one of his UF assistants and "didn't think about it again until a couple of days ago"
    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/florida-gators/os-sp-aaron-hernandez-suicide-mike-bianchi-0420-story.html

    "Did he fail in this disciplinary aspect of his job? That’s possible, but critics don’t identify any specifics to support their insinuation that he did"

    Please see above.

    "
    he continued to employ Zach Smith after hearing about the domestic-abuse allegations. But I’m not sure this can fairly be characterized as “trivializing” domestic violence, nor do I think this is an offense – if it’s an offense – that should require Meyer to lose his career"

    I'm sure it can be characterized that way. It's a matter of opinion, not something that can be swayed by facts, only be perception and that is reality for people who don't share your opinion. Meyer hasn't lost his career. Last I checked, he's on TV every weekend. And it isn't USC's job to otherwise "save" a career that seems to be going along quite nicely.

    "What we can say with certainty is that, contra the critics, Meyer didn’t put winning ahead of domestic violence concerns when it came to Smith"

    Really? We? Who is we? Because I certainly can't say that...at all. You wanted facts and evidence from others but you didn't provide any yourself.

    Look, for me this has nothing to do with "punishing" Urban Meyer nor with any future issues he could bring. I'm not forecasting the kinds of issues that I believe he chose to ignore at Florida. I also don't see a non-hire as some kind of punishment. IMO, someone who would publicly lie to save his own bacon isn't someone I trust. Is he the best candidate? Sure, that's an easy argument to make. But is he the only one? No. Are there legitimate reasons that non-hysterical people might have for not wanting him? Yes.

    If he were to be hired, I'll have no choice but to make peace with it. But if he isn't, I won't have any guilt over alleged punishment.
     
  13. bremillard

    bremillard Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    128
    Nov 11, 2019
    #73
    He's likely not the ONLY guy but he has the best credentials of anyone that's actually available. There certainly may be some unknown coach who could eventually get things turned around but that would, at best, take time. USC now needs a guy who can immediately sway recruits and make the right calls in every aspect of the game. Urban Meyer checks every box. If Jesus Christ himself was interested in coaching for USC there would be a number of people trying to find something wrong with that choice. Most intellectually honest fan knows that Urban Meyer is just this side of Jesus Christ. Time to do the right thing for USC football. The nice guy, up the ranks, USC family bullshit has all been tried and failed. Now let's just hire competence.
     
  14. uscvball

    uscvball Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    11,460
    Likes Received:
    18,896
    Nov 11, 2019
    #74
    Red herring much?
    What? Lol. You seem a bit confused about Jesus. Get you some before it's your time.
     
  15. flyfishintrojan

    flyfishintrojan Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,302
    Likes Received:
    3,760
    Nov 11, 2019
    #75
    The UNIVERSITY of Southern California does not NEED Urban Meyer. No way, no how. It is bursting at the seams with solid admissions applicants, so much so, that people try to bribe their way in.

    The football program may need him but that really comes down to a values judgement as to where football fits in the grand scheme. The fans don’t seem to care, no one showed for the UO game and that said a lot.
     
  16. Arhedge

    Arhedge Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,273
    Likes Received:
    6,741
    Nov 11, 2019
    #76
    Let me offer a global response to some of the criticisms of my piece, some of which were very good.

    First, is Urban Meyer the only coach who can resurrect USC football? No. But every other candidate is much more of a risk. USC could go after a Matt Rhule or a Matt Campbell, for example, both of whom are good young coaches. They might succeed. But neither has the established track record of success than Urban Meyer has, and the only thing we have to go on is a coach's track record. Nobody other than Saban among current coaches has a track record like Urban Meyer's. If you're going to argue that USC could hire another coach and be successful, I'll agree with you, but you should also concede that USC takes a significantly higher risk that the next hire will fail if they hire somebody else, and another failed football coach would be a very damaging turn of events.

    Second, there's no way to know whether a non-Urban hire would engage in the types of moral compromises that some people fear from Urban Meyer. In fact, let me take a stronger position: most successful football coaches morally compromise in some fashion. It's easy to see why. There is a lot of pressure to win, and the people you rely on to win are young men, full of testosterone and rarely full of wisdom, and many of them come from troubled backgrounds. Every coach has disciplinary and criminal issues in the program. Every single one. Meyer's were particularly pronounced at Florida, though as some people noted, a lot of those arrests were for marijuana possession and other non-violent offenses. But Meyer's history of players acting outside the law doesn't appear to have been worse than expected at Bowling Green, Utah, or Ohio State. So the risk with Meyer or player misconduct isn't likely to be higher than it will be if you hire a Matt Rhule or Matt Campbell.

    Indeed, if you point to the Aaron Hernandez example as a reason not to hire Urban Meyer, all I can say is that Bill Belichick and some high school coach are guilty of the same moral compromises. In all of those cases, the coach was dealing with a player that they no doubt knew was troubled and had NFL Hall of Fame potential. What do you do? You can kick him off the team before he gets prosecuted criminally; it's not entirely clear that will remove the danger from society. So you keep him on the team, hope to give him direction, and you pray he doesn't melt down on your watch. And you rationalize it. Almost every coach would do that, and it doesn't make the coaches bad guys.

    You can fault Urban for Hernandez -- that's probably fair -- but how do we know the next hire wouldn't act the same way? It's easy to say that Art Briles is untouchable; his acts were monstrous. It's easy to stay away from the Barry Switzers of the world; he's so clearly a slimy guy and willing to morally compromise with the rules. But then you have Tom Osborne and Joe Paterno, two guys who by all accounts were the most upright and moral college coaches of their generation. Yet Osborne tolerated people like Lawrence Phillips, and Joe Paterno tolerated the presence of a monster. If you're looking for coaches who don't morally compromise, you're not going to know whether the next hire fits that bill, and there's a good chance he won't.

    Thus, I think you hire the best possible guy as long as his past conduct doesn't disqualify him the way Art Briles' conduct disqualifies him. I don't think Urban's conduct disqualifies him, and I don't see any real likelihood of harm to the USC community going forward. USC doesn't tolerate players who misbehave; I think we all know that by now. And we're unlikely to see a repeat of the Zach Smith situation.

    For me, it's about time we hired the best football coach available, instead of hiring mediocrities for non-football reasons the way we have the last two times. I don't know how many more times USC can afford to screw up before it becomes Pitt, Nebraska, or one of the other former football powers.
     
  17. SouthbayTrojan91

    SouthbayTrojan91 Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,143
    Likes Received:
    6,953
    Nov 11, 2019
    #77
    The biggest unanswered question is this: "Is Urban even interested in the USC head coach position?"

    The entire topic could very well be a waste of time.
     
    ConquerorSC, CP619 and K9Buck like this.
  18. Ventura Trojan

    Ventura Trojan Junior Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    512
    Nov 11, 2019
    #78
     
  19. Chicagotrojan

    Chicagotrojan Active Member


    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    28
    Nov 11, 2019
    #79
    Really well said. One things that I haven’t heard many address is UM’s health situation. Isn’t that why he stepped down at OSU? He literally has an apparently inoperable cyst on his brain. The impacts here are two-fold: 1) is he genuinely able to return and 2) if he can and becomes our coach, how long can we expect from him?
     
    ConquerorSC, ClovisTroy and K9Buck like this.
  20. K9Buck

    K9Buck Points Member


    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2018
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    160
    Nov 11, 2019
    #80
    There's a supposed "insider" on the Ohio State Rivals site that claims the only job that would lure Meyer back into coaching is the Dallas Cowboys. Take it fwiw.
     
    ConquerorSC likes this.

Share This Page