What if CV doesn’t go away after flu season

Discussion in 'GarryP's Trojan Huddle' started by Troy70, Mar 1, 2020.

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  2. uscvball

    uscvball Junior Member


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    #2
    It's not going to go away just like the regular flu has never gone away. The entire thing is being completely overblown by the media. Like with any other virus, it has a more profound effect on the young, the old, and those with an already compromised immune system. There will be plenty of people who are completely asymptomatic and some who have described it as less than a cold.

    I am an almost obsessive hand washer. If I have a fever or other active symptoms of the flu, I stay home as it is. Other than that I won't be changing any of my plans.
     
  3. ImanMarshallLOCK

    ImanMarshallLOCK Banned


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    #4
    Yes, ignore all the videos of the hellish conditions in Chinese hospitals. Ignore all the images of the dead on the streets. Ignore the homes being sealed shut. Ignore the body bags and crematoriums. Ignore the public seizures and vomiting of blood. Ignore the fact that no pandemic has ever caused a stock selloff like we are seeing.

    It's all just a flu. No need to worry. The Chinese government is in charge, they have a perfect track record of transparency. Don't buy canned food, don't buy face masks. I'm getting sleepy, aren't you? Let's just all go to sleep for a bit.
     
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  4. uscvball

    uscvball Junior Member


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    #5
    I don't live in Beijing or Wuhan and have no plans to travel there. China has some of the worst health and worst healthcare in the world. The majority of people who have died from corona were young, old, and compromised. This isn't new. SARS started the same way....overblown media coverage, panic, poor decision-making, and here we are.

    The corona virus is now outside of China, it's in the US, and so far the only person who has died was over 60 and was in poor health to begin with. The US has good healthcare facilities. Most are prepared, China was not. Americans have a shit ton of access to information regarding things like hand-washing, avoiding crowds, don't touch surfaces in public, stay at home when sick, etc. The poor, elderly, and sick in China have access to nothing.

    Viral flu is a part of life. The seasonal viral flu has and will continue to kill Americans at a higher rate than corona. Panic and ignorance never helped anyone.

    Remember when people thought you could get AIDS/HIV from just touching an infected person? That's what I'm talking about. Fear and panic becomes irrational thought and treatment of others.
     
  5. TheTrojanKnight

    TheTrojanKnight Junior Member


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    #6
    I will thanks! I'll be damned if my trip to Vietnam and Tokyo this summer is interrupted because of some hysterical 1600s era witch paranoia.
     
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  6. ExpatTrojan

    ExpatTrojan Member


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    #7
    I currently live out in the UAE, trust me when I say that this is being treated seriously. An entire cycling race was shut down when Italian staff members tested positive. They also quarantined the two hotels to make sure they safeguard the public from exposure. Schools are closing down and companies are asking staff to take leave.

    The airport screenings and travel restrictions are only getting more intense. I do understand that the US news create a massive hysteria with their coverage, and they would be doing the population a favor by toning that down. Can't believe people have to be reminded to properly wash their hands and cover their stupid face when they cough or sneeze.
     
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  7. SoAmericanTrojan

    SoAmericanTrojan Junior Member


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    #8
    Nike just close HQ, Uncle Phil getting worried with CV.....they have unreported cases and trying to keep bad news in-house.....and seem is not just employees but few OU students that visit HQ
     
  8. Ride Fly

    Ride Fly Junior Member


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    #9
    the one thing that might be different, and thus a legitimate cause for concern about this COVID-19 virus which is SARS-2 is that it might be aerosol-spread. Flu, SARS -1, MERS, and Ebola are liquid-spread and so tiny droplets of liquid from coughs and sneezes need to enter through our mouths, noses, eyes or open cuts on the skin. On the other hand, something like the Hantavirus can be spread through the disturbance of rat feces, so they’re considered aerosol-spread, and liquid-spread (through contact with rat urine). Other diseases like measles, TB, chickenpox, smallpox are airborne-spread. I’m not sure what the difference is between aerosol and airborne spread is, but I’m assuming aerosol means the virus’ “air time” is limited compared to true airborne. If COVID-19 has really become aerosol-spread, it’s a game-changer.

    This is a deadly serious thing and we should all be very worried. We’ve dodged many bullets in the past. One bullet will eventually hit the target. I’m not saying this is the bullet. Just saying we can’t be nonchalant about it. I seriously hope we can get a handle on this.
     
  9. J4SC75

    J4SC75 Junior Member


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    #10
    Just a couple of corrections:

    It is true that flu does not "go away." However it is like most viruses and has its seasons and it varies in type from year to year. It generally gets to a point where it is present minimally in the population.

    COVID19 is not the flu and its pattern of causing disease uncertain because it is a novel coronavirus. I would say that the media in this case has been spot on - they have not reported anything that is untrue and I think we all should be worried. Unlike flu, COVID19 has not affected children the way the flu does. Yes, the elderly, especially those with chronic conditions, are at risk for death. Please remember that almost a third of the elderly have chronic conditions, so we're talking about millions of people at risk.

    Why worry?
    • This virus has been shown to be 20 times more deadly than the flu
    • This virus is much more contagious than the flu, except the H1N1 strain
    • You are right that one an be asymptomatic, but that's the problem. People who don't appear to be ill can and will spread the disease
    • There are no medicines or vaccines, nor will there be for many months at the earliest. Flu vaccine has been shown to save lives and people continue to refuse to get it - what will they do with a new one when it's available?
    • Our hospitals have limited surge ability, i.e., the ability to handle an increase in admissions related COVID19. We are talking about the potential for millions of unexpected admissions.
    • Though you are an obsessive hand washer, most of the population is not, so spread will be common
    I know some have commented on Chinese medicine as being inferior, but that is only the case in the most rural of locations. With the recent improvement in the Chinese economy, they have built many state of the art hospitals and they train excellent physicians. This is a serious situation and we don't know as much as we need to know.

    To the OP, I would be concerned that SC football games may be played in empty stadiums and not because Helton is still coach - time will tell.
     
  10. uscvball

    uscvball Junior Member


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    #12
    Yes, I did mention seasonal flu in a later post above.

    Yes, I called it a virus.

    Has the media reported accurate things? Sure. Have they also reported false information? Without a doubt, particularly because of your prior comment that much is still UNKNOWN. Every day, every hour, another headline proclaiming more patients and more victims and emptying shelves. The media is fomenting a panic within the public sector. Panic buying and hording is doing far more damage than the flu right now. Stocks of masks through online sellers are depleted and most people probably don't know how to correctly wear a mask. This is the exact sort of panic that we saw when HIV/AIDS first became a widespread issue.

    The biggest issue in preventing spread is human error and human behavior. That is not new. The biggest difference between China and the US, is that the Chinese government kept this virus private until the spread was out of control. The US has a totally different, although far from perfect, approach. Yes, it's serious. My point is that treating it as though it's a wildfire killer disease about to wipe out 1/3 of the population is an overreaction. That sort of panic prevents clear, thoughtful thinking and decisions.
     
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  11. denali15

    denali15 Points Member


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    #13
    That "20 times" number is probably nonsense. China has zero idea how many folks have been infected. As noted in the NYT article, most folks either have very mild symptoms or don't even know they were infected. My guess is that thousands of Americans are already (or have been) infected, but their symptoms are attributed to something else.

    For instance, about 1M people per week come down with "flu-like" symptoms. We aren't going to test very many of those, so we'll never know how many actual COVID cases we end up having. I'd guess that the mortality rate won't be much worse than the flu--fragile folks have more trouble, healthy people end up just fine.

    I'm not saying this isn't serious, but we tend to survive just fine when "serious" problems are known and actions being taken.
    Lastly, as VBall notes, the USA isn't China. And, in fact, Wuhan isn't even Beijing, were the health system is much better.
     
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  12. denali15

    denali15 Points Member


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    Here's a long but interesting article from Mark Steyn, reviewing the governmental reaction back when SARS was the big scare:

    In China over three thousand health workers have been infected by COVID-19, and have thus helped spread the virus and infect many others, including those already weakened by other ailments who made the mistake of going to hospital. I hope startling carelessness in America and Italy and elsewhere will not result in similar outcomes throughout the west. We have been here before. What ought to have been one of the most disturbing aspects of the SARS outbreak is that in Canada the disease was spread by the medical system itself. Here's what I had to say in The National Post on April 24th 2003:

    One of the most tediously over-venerated bits of British political wisdom is Prime Minister Harold MacMillan's amused Edwardian response as to what he feared most in the months ahead: "Events, dear boy, events."

    But even events come, so to speak, politically predetermined. If, for example, you have powerful public sector unions, you will be at the mercy of potentially crippling strikes. The quasi-Eastern European Britain of the 1970s was brought to a halt by a miners' strike in a way that would have been impossible in the United States.

    So it is with SARS. The appearance of the virus itself was a surprise but everything since has been, to some extent, predictable. Because totalitarian regimes lie, China denied there was any problem for three months, and thereafter downplayed the extent of it. Because UN agencies are unduly deferential to dictatorships, the World Health Organization accepted Beijing's lies. This enabled SARS to wiggle free of China's borders before anyone knew about it. I mentioned all this three weeks ago, but only in the last couple of days has the People's Republic decided to come clean -- or, at any rate, marginally less unclean -- about what's going on.

    As for our diseased Dominion, like the Chinese our leaders behaved true to form. When something bad happens in Canada, the priority is to demonstrate how nice we are. After September 11th, the Prime Minister visited a mosque. After SARS hit, the Prime Minister visited a Chinese restaurant. Insofar as one can tell, Chinese Canadians seem to be avoiding Chinese restaurants at a somewhat higher rate than caucasians. But, while it may have been blindsided by the actual outbreak of disease, the Canadian system is superb at dealing with entirely mythical outbreaks of racism. I think we can take it as read that if a truck of goulash exploded on the 401 killing 120, the Prime Minister would be Hungarian folk dancing within 48 hours. Personally, I'd have been more impressed if he and Aline had had a candlelit dinner for two over a gurney in the emergency room of a Toronto hospital. That's the issue -- not Canadian restaurants, but Canadian health care.

    But the piped CanCon mood music has wafted over Jean and Aline's table and drowned out the more awkward questions. Toronto is the only SARS "hot zone" outside Asia. Of nearly 200 nations on the face of this Earth, Canada is one of only eight where SARS has killed, and currently ranks third, after China and Singapore, in the number of SARS deaths. Indeed, Canada had the highest SARS fatality rate in the world until one of two infected Filipinos died a few days ago -- and according to its government she picked it up from the mother of her Toronto roommate.

    But why get hung up on details? "Over the past six weeks, health care workers across Toronto have done an amazing job," wrote Joseph Mapa, president of Mount Sinai Hospital, on our letters page yesterday. "We need to applaud these men and women for their dedication and commitment."

    No, we don't. We can indulge in lame-o maple boosterism if we ever lick this thing. Until then, we need to ask: Why Toronto? London, Sydney, San Francisco and other Western cities have large, mobile Asian populations. But they don't have SARS. The excuse being made for China is that they have vast rural provinces with limited access to health care. So what's Toronto's?

    Here's the timeline:

    February 11th: The WHO issued its first SARS health alert, which was picked up by the American ProMed network, which distributed it to Toronto health authorities. The original alert has been described as "obviously significant" by those who saw it.

    February 28th: Kwan Sui-Chu, having recently returned from Hong Kong, goes to her doctor in Scarborough complaining of fever, coughing, muscle tenderness, all the symptoms of the by now several ProMed alerts. As is traditional in Canada, the patient is prescribed an antibiotic and sent home.

    March 5th: Having apparently never returned for further medical treatment and slipped into a coma at home, Kwan Sui-Chu is found dead in her bed. The coroner, Dr. Mark Shaffer, lists cause of death as "heart attack." Later that day, Kwan's son, Tse Chi Kwai, visits the doctor, complaining of fever, coughing, etc. He too is prescribed an antibiotic and sent home. Later still, the son takes his wife to the doctor. Likewise.

    March 7th: Tse Chi Kwai goes to Scarborough Grace, and is left on a gurney in Emergency for 12 hours exposed to hundreds of people.

    March 9th: Scarborough Grace discovers Tse's mother has recently died after returning from Hong Kong. But Dr. Sandy Finkelstein concludes, if Tse is infectious, it's TB.

    March 13th: Tse dies, and Scarborough Grace calls Dr. Allison McGeer, Mount Sinai's infectious disease specialist, who finally makes the SARS connection.

    March 16th: Joe Pollack, who lay next to Tse on that Scarborough Grace ER gurney for hour after hour, returns to the hospital with SARS. He's isolated, but not his wife. Later that day, while at the hospital, Mrs. Pollack comes in contact with another patient who's a member of a Catholic Charismatic group.

    March 28th: At a meeting of the Charismatic group, the ailing Scarborough patient's unknowingly infected son exposed 500 others to SARS ...

    Let's leave it there. If this is what the President of Mount Sinai calls an "amazing job," then we might as well head for the hills screaming "We're all gonna die!" Toronto health authorities have done an amazing job that's amazing only in its comprehensive lousiness. At every link in the chain, anything that could go wrong did go wrong.

    In rural China, SARS got its start through the population's close contact with farm animals. In Hong Kong, it was spread by casual contact in the lobby, elevators and other public areas of the Metropole Hotel. Only in Canada does the virus owe its grip on the population to the active co-operation of the medical profession. In Toronto, the system that's supposed to protect us from infection instead infected us. They breached the most basic medical principle: first do no harm. Even after they knew it was SARS, Scarborough Grace kept making things worse.

    Dr. Mapa's pathetic attempts at covering his profession's ass are understandable. But most people who've had experience of Canadian health care will recognize the SARS chain as an extreme version of what usually happens. The other day, a guy I know went to a Quebec emergency room, waited for six hours, was told he had a migraine, and sent home. It turned out to be a life-threatening parasite in the brain. I'm sure you've got friends and family with similar stories. A chronically harassed, understaffed, underequipped system reaches reflexively for routine diagnoses, prescriptions. Did Kwan Sui-Chu's doctor, an Asian Canadian herself with many Asian patients, get the Toronto Public Health alert? Is it normal for coroners to mark "heart attack" as cause of death for elderly patients even when they've been prescribed antibiotics for a new condition in the last week? Why, after Scarborough admitted Mr. Pollack, whom they knew to have been infected during his previous stay with them, did they allow Mrs. Pollack to circulate among other patients? Why did Scarborough compound its own carelessness by infecting York Central?

    Most of what went wrong could have been discovered by a few social pleasantries: How's the family? Been travelling recently? The so-called "bedside manner" isn't just to cheer you up, it's meant to provide the doctor with information that will assist his diagnosis. In Canadian health care, coiled tight as a spring, there's no room for chit-chat: give her the antibiotics, put it down as a heart attack, stick him on a gurney in the corridor for a couple of days. Maybe you could get service as bad as this in, oh, a Congolese hospital. But in most other Western health care systems the things Ontario failed to do would be taken for granted. There might be a lapse at some point in the chain but not a 100% systemic failure all the way down the line.

    You'll notice that just like Red China, the Prime Minister and Toronto's medical staff I've reacted reflexively, blaming it in my right-wing way on the decrepitude of socialized health care, which almost by definition is reactive rather than anticipatory, and belatedly so at that. But my analysis, unlike Dr. Mapa's, fits the facts. But not to worry: as our leader is happy to assure us, our no-tier health care "express da Canadian value."

    ~from The National Post of Canada, April 24th 2003
     
  13. The Garage Mahal

    The Garage Mahal Junior Member


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    #15
    This is a great response to some really pollyannish prior posts.

    This is definitely not the end of the world. It seems to most resemble the 1918 flu, which killed ~5% of the world's population. That's nowhere near the end of civilized society.

    It's cause for a proportional response, which is to basically prepare oneself and one's family for an extended period at home (2 weeks - 2 months). No, the young are not more susceptible. And if you're in reasonable health, you probably won't die from contracting it. But the downside case one should prepare for are significant logistical shutdowns, in a widespread number of cities and states.

    Consider: in Hurricane Katrina, it still took weeks to get critical supplies to two affected areas. And that was with the entire country focused on aiding those communities.

    You can't unchoose to be unprepared, but preparation will make both the spread of the disease, and your ability to weather that period, far far better.
     
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  14. J4SC75

    J4SC75 Junior Member


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    #16
    We survived the flu epidemic of 1918, but many people died, partly due to a lack of awareness for how serious the disease was. My point is that this is a serious disease and whether it's 20 times or 10 times, it can be a very deadly disease. It is also a disease that is very contagious. The fact that disease and deaths are occurring in the US as we speak suggests the China factor is not a factor.
     
  15. denali15

    denali15 Points Member


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    #17
    You'll admit that medicine has advanced since 1918, won't you? and "disease & deaths are occurring in the US" is a bit of overstatement, I suggest. I read about the 2 deaths in WA state: a 70-year old and someone with "ongoing health problems." I'm not saying it not a concern, but talk of emptying the Coliseum is silly, IMO. This looks a lot like a flu--kills the elderly, not really a problem for just about everyone else.

    It is also true that there is little evidence that this is any more fatal than the flu is. We have no idea how many have been infected, as most folks don't even know they have it--that's how severe the symptoms is.
     
  16. uscvball

    uscvball Junior Member


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    #18
    As for my comments.....hand-washing, staying home when sick, avoiding known sick people, and not fomenting public panic is being a pollyanna? My response anyway, was hardly cheerful or optimistic. It is a measured and thoughtful approach to a virus.

    "US Surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams said.

    "I want folks to understand that we knew this was coming, we told folks that this was going to happen and it is why we've been preaching preparedness from the very start," Adams said Monday.

    "Caution is appropriate. Preparedness is appropriate. Panic is not."
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  17. GLYCERINE

    GLYCERINE Junior Member


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    #19
    Vball nailed it
     
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  18. djgcue

    djgcue Junior Member


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    #20
    If there ain't any resulting zombies like in World War Z then I ain't worrying 'bout it. =P
     
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