Salute to the Doolittle’s Raiders

Discussion in 'GarryP's Trojan Huddle' started by Troy70, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. Merlin4SC

    Merlin4SC Junior Member


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    #41
    They actually invested in four of these beasts, one was converted into the aircraft carrier Shinano following loses at Midway, which became the largest carrier in the world until the USS Forestal. Some idiot thought it would be a good idea to go play with the US submarines before they installed all the water tight provisions with a skeleton crew, so she never saw action. The other hull was scrapped not long after keel laying in favor of material for cruisers and land based 18.1" guns. You might know how many bombs and torpedo hits it took to sink both Yamato and Musashi; 11 & 9, and 17 & 12 respectively, and that it was a lucky bomb strike that took out the damage control pumping station that actually did her in, and for loss of Yamato in Operation Ten Go it was loss of electricity for the turret control and pumps that made her keel over after the 5 waves of US dive bombers and torpedo planes had their way for 4.5 hours IIRC. I wonder how much punishment the Missouri could have taken and still stayed afloat.
     
  2. norcalsurfer

    norcalsurfer Points Member


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    #42
    A couple of things

    1.) American steel > Japanese steel. At the Battle of Samar, US Navy destroyers took punishment that they're not supposed to. At Guadalcanal the USS South Dakota took 40 hits at point blank range that would have normally sank any another warship

    2.) The armor on the Yamato is thick but it's also poorly made. There's an article on it that I am too lazy to look up. And it was severely tested when the submarine USS Skate torpedoed the Yamato in 1943. A large hole was punctured and required the Yamato to go into dry dock. And that's by submarine torpedo that isn't that powerful to begin with.

    3.) A lot of the bombs dropped on the Yamato are 500 pound bombs, bombs that the Yamato are designed to survive. I'd wager that the Bismarck despite having weaker armor actually is more impressive at surviving given that it was hit by 400+ 14-inch/16-inch shells from the King George V and Rodney.

    4.) The Yamato's AAA defense sucks, the 25 mm guns suffer from way too much muzzle vibration and poor rate of rate. Missouri's AAA defense is on a class on it is own. There's a reason why at the Philippine Sea and with kamikazes, the Japanese couldn't get enough planes through the battleship AAA defense to sink the large carriers.
     
  3. Merlin4SC

    Merlin4SC Junior Member


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    #43
    This has been war gamed out a million different times, most seriously during the past 7 years as China stole sovereign Philippine territory to build artificial islands and re-purpose existing islands that did not belong to them in the Spratly's. There are several scenarios planned, just as there are for a kinetic war on the Korean peninsula. They got complicated when Duterte threw down with Xi Jinping and decided he didn't need US protection any longer. But one scenarios has us based at Cam Ranh Bay. The oldest scenarios involve China moving to block the Taiwan Strait. All involve the full use of Japanese assets as well as Guam. Only last week they made public China's foray into the Strait last weekend with the Liaoning and her battle group.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/china-sends-aircraft-carrier-near-japan-taiwan-as-navy-struggles-with-coronavirus-1.625869

    Of course this is menacing, but it should be understood that Between Taiwan and Japan the Chinese dont have the ability to conduct an overwhelming lightning blitzkreg style strike before the US can bring assets to bear. Which has been the plan for decades. You see China's stuff doesn't quite work as advertised but it looks like trouble and the PLAN and PLAAF would love to make trouble.
     
  4. Merlin4SC

    Merlin4SC Junior Member


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    #44
    Sounds like you'd enjoy going adversarial on this eh? In the enumerated items 1-4 above, what is your point? Were you trying to compare the relative strength and survivability and lethality between Yamato's and the Iowa's? That has been done many many times, with no clear cut winner, so the order of battle mattered most. How many waves of attacks do you think Missouri / Iowa's would survive with no air cover and those 25mm guns? Most naval architects believe that it was a faulty H-beam design supporting the blisters that got both Yamato's sunk which allowed them to take on too much water.

    I know it's a bitch being couped up in the house with nothing to do. Actually in the Von Kleinsmid Center library at USC, there is a treasure trove of both ship design and WWII combatants.
     
  5. norcalsurfer

    norcalsurfer Points Member


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    #45
    Iowas probably get sunk but then again this small destroyer somehow managed to hold its own against a large group of kamikazes.

    https://abcnews4.com/news/local/uss-laffey-at-patriots-point-honors-75th-anniversary-of-wwii-kamikaze-attack-survival

    Also keep in mind it wasn't 400 planes against one battleship, it was 400 planes against 10 warships (1 battleship, 1 light cruiser, 8 destroyers). Only 4 destroyers made it back to Japan. Plus some of the planes were fighter escorts.
     
  6. DaFireMedic

    DaFireMedic Junior Member


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    #46
    I saw an analysis on the History channel of hypothetical battles between the Yamato/Musashi, the Bismarck, and the Iowa class battleships.

    They had the Iowa’s winning a one on one confrontation with any of the other battleships of WWII due to their superior speed and accurate guns.
     
  7. norcalsurfer

    norcalsurfer Points Member


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    #47
    Yup I agree. US Navy damage control is second to none so that also plays a role (some ships that people thought were going to sink ended up surviving thanks to damage control).

    If you ever visit the USS Iowa in San Pedro, it's worth going to.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  8. Troy70

    Troy70 Junior Member


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    #48
    IJN paid for not training damage control & making it a priority
     
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  9. Peete2Affholter

    Peete2Affholter Junior Member


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    #49
    I haven't yet visited the Iowa, but I have gotten to see her sister ship, the New Jersey, when we went to Philadelphia. (She's actually moored across the river at Camden, NJ). Pretty damn impressive, but for my money, I enjoy the USS Midway which is in San Diego. The museum there has a number of other ships, including a submarine and other harbor ferries that were used before the Coronado bridge was built.

    This has been fun. Yeah, it kinda sucks that we're all cooped up inside, but I didn't know I'd stumble in a nest of history nerds like myself here! :)

    Regarding the US Navy penchant for damage control (at least relative to the IJN) A big part of that is, tbh, the cultural inclination of the Americans versus the Japanese (at least in the 1930s and 40s) where the Japanese military viewed the lives of its soldiers and sailors as distinctly expendable. A soldier's life was something to be used, and in the course of a military action or campaign, to be used up - the same as an artillery shell, bomb, or round of ammunition. By contrast, the Americans, while they knew any military action entailed casualties, wanted to give all their fighting men at least a chance of making it out alive, and so spent lots of R&D on equipment and systems and doctrines that ensured that their pilots, sailors, and Marines had the best chance of surviving an action as possible.

    On a slightly different topic, I recently read "Castles of Steel" by Robert K. Massie, which chronicles the naval arms race between Great Britain and Imperial Germany in the years leading up to WW1. The British doctrine was "Hit hard, hit first!" and their whole naval culture evolved around having ships with big, longer range guns, and a faster rate of fire.
    The Germans felt that the primary responsibility of any warship was first, to stay afloat, and so designed their ships with greater and better armor protection than similar-tonnage British ships, but at the expense of smaller caliber guns. However, it could be argued that qualitatively, the German High Seas Fleet had better ships, and certainly, better gunnery than the British, but ultimately, played their cards very timidly and never seriously challenged Britain's sea supremacy.
     
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  10. Boselli

    Boselli Junior Member

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    #50
    Two novels back to back by Hermon Wouk reminds me of this point. War and Remembrance and The Winds of War. Wouk, writing in hindsight, does the best back to back set of novels about WWII ever executed. The congress wanted battleships, battleships, and more battleships after PH.
    The Key character in both books was Rear Admiral Pug Henry a service officer representing Washington DC to all allied powers all over the globe but yearning for a command. Always asking for one but always being told he way too important in Berlin or Moscow or Tokyo or London. After pearl he was granted the command of his dreams. A battleship! When he arrived in Pearl he wanted to be led immediately to his ship and they took him to it... battle ship USS Arizona which was burning and sinking there in the harbor and Pug realized she could not be salvaged.

    Here is the thing about hindsight. One cannot ever be wrong or right but in the book Admiral Henry sat on the dock watching his battleship being sunk from a very far distance without the ability to do battle against her enemies....to fight back. He was blasted with the red hot realization that navel warfare would never be the same...

    Wouk was a lot like Michner you know. Not a great writer but an historically accurate story teller with the courage to challenge common view on many subjects. Therefore and nevertheless I cannot accept a unalterable conclusion about what many felt about the future of battleships after Pearl Harbor. It would be too hard for a commander on that day 1n 1941 watching Pearl burn who did not understand the killing power of flat tops right then and there.

    Just a quick and probably wrong google search:
    25 aircraft carrier keels laid after PH before end of war
    8 battleship keels laid down after PH before end of war
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  11. Peete2Affholter

    Peete2Affholter Junior Member


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    #51
    I have those on my long-term reading list, with about 50 other titles, lol. I'm currently trying to re-read Shelby Foote's trilogy on the Civil War. I'd read the first book many years ago, but hadn't done the other two.

    I also remember the television miniseries that they had for War and Remembrance and the Winds of War. Even then I was a war movie nerd, but I seem to recall that the commercials advertising them appeared to be geared toward the daytime soap opera-watching housewife.
     
  12. wes4usc

    wes4usc Junior Member


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    #52
    Interesting, I am currently reading "Big Week", about the massive/decisive air battle over Germany in 1944. The author makes a point that the mantra of the US and UK was "Steel not flesh" - meaning they were "determined to use modern technology and mechanization to limit the number of their young men who actually had to fight....."

    Or as General George S. Patton said: "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
     
  13. norcalsurfer

    norcalsurfer Points Member


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    #53
    the USAAF by this time finally has the men, tactics and now the planes to take on the Jadgwaffe's finest.

    It helped that the USAAF had this flying hotrod during Big Week

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2020
  14. Boselli

    Boselli Junior Member

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    #54
    The most angry witch in the sky.
     
  15. Boselli

    Boselli Junior Member

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    #55
    what exactly makes one ships hull more or less penetrable than another?
     
  16. Merlin4SC

    Merlin4SC Junior Member


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    #56
    The short answer Boselli is the angle of the support structure for the amour plate. Those who designed for the threat best won. Anyone can make it thicker, but what will happen when taken at the right angle? Just like it has been said above, the Germans did a very respectable job and the Japanese thought voids and compartments would prevail better. I often surmised that in addition to reactive armour, a light honeycomb structure inboard would contain more damage than anything else. Then damage control pumps wont matter so much as sending a diver to smoothen out the rough drag causing edges below. One day soon the US will have to go back to survivable combatants without the Stark effect.
     
  17. Damien

    Damien Points Member


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    #57
    My grandfather was lucky to survive the attack at Pearl ( USS Maryland ) and shared stories of the payback by the Raiders and other airman. War is hell and may the Americans of today never forget the past. There will be a new enemy anxious to attack this great country.
     
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  18. norcalsurfer

    norcalsurfer Points Member


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    #58
    was he on the USS Maryland during the Battle of the Surigao Strait? That would have been a sight to behold.
     
  19. Damien

    Damien Points Member


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    #59
    Not sure, but I will ask my dad.
     

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