If Helton were fired after this year

Discussion in 'GarryP's Trojan Huddle' started by Scalum76, Jun 2, 2021.

  1. Arhedge

    Arhedge Junior Member


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    #21
    I want to make sure I understand your position, Wolfpack. You're saying there is no hire to replace Helton that would be a guaranteed success. I agree with that ... but only now that Meyer is out of the picture. Meyer has USC in the playoff almost immediately. But can't we agree that somebody like Fickell or Campbell is far more likely to be successful than Helton is? It's not like Helton hasn't had enough time to recruit his guys and implement his system, whatever that system is supposed to be. Helton is below average, and he'll never be anything other than below average.

    Second, you're saying there are reasons other than Helton why blue-chip recruits have chosen to leave California and go elsewhere. And I agree. But we should also be able to agree that if Helton were a better coach -- somebody known for developing talent and winning, somebody that blue-chip recruits, their parents, and their coaches could trust to make the most of a talented kid's career -- that fewer blue-chip recruits would leave California and the west coast. If Pete Carroll were still at USC, very few blue-chip recruits would be spurning USC for the SEC or (for crying out loud) Oregon. Some would leave, and he would pull some superstars out of SEC territory, too. But most of the top guys would stay, because they know they'd be developed and would win.

    If you're pushing back against a position of "anybody but Helton," then I'm with you. Hiring yet another inept coach would be a disaster, as the guy will get at least three and probably four or five years. For one of the first times in recent USC history, the administration needs to make a smart hire this time. But that doesn't mean that you leave in place somebody who can't do the job. What kind of logic says that because the next guy might be lousy you should continue to pay $5 million per year to a guy you know is lousy?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
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  2. PickSicx

    PickSicx Junior Member


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    #22
    Absolutely not.

    No more experiments. You have to bring in someone who has already shown that they can coach, cast vision, recruit, and handle the pressure of game day.

    People are who the back of their card says they are. Quit picking guys who are lifetime .200 hitters and expecting them to suddenly hit .325. In the case of Donte Williams, he doesn't even have a card.

    This is still a top 10 destination, and as such, we can hire an established top 10 coach.
     
  3. Hockey10

    Hockey10 Junior Member


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    #23
    They are leaving simply for a two reasons. Helton. They want to win Championships then get drafted and USC is the school in the Pac12 where they use to go to win them and then go pro. Now they go to Alabama or if they want to stay near home and get cool things they go to Whoregon where they still won't win but at least Uncle Phil takes care of them. It has nothing to do with T.V contracts.
     
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  4. trojan raul

    trojan raul Junior Member


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    #24
    During the Hackett years...also know as the 'Graveyard'...SC was an afterthought. Then comes Carroll, and all of a sudden, we are on prime time TV, everyone is tuning in, the seats are filled, excitement is in the air, our ratings are sky high, our opponents hate us and are killing themselves to beat us...I don't know much about TV contracts, but a strong, championship SC program will get MAJOR exposure.

    We are back in 'graveyard' territory. Once we start spanking some folks, the media will line up outside Howard Jones field.

    Also, in terms of facilities, there is a major upgrade from Carroll's years. Even back then, people were complaining how we were 'behind' other programs but it didn't seem to affect our play on the field. It's vision, mindset and a head coach who doesn't give a fuck except winning. All the rest is window dressing.
     
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  5. heyrev

    heyrev Junior Member


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    #25
    Not a direct answer to your question but I am guessing that Donte Williams came to USC only because Bohn promised him an interview for the HC job if and when it became available. It was a very surprising hire otherwise, with no direct link to Helton, USC, or Bohn. But, it made sense if Williams saw a chance for swift upward advancement, and made that a condition for his hire.
    As for learning on the job, USC has done this repeatedly in its past. Neither McKay, Robinson, nor Carroll had COLLEGE head coaching experience before being hired! Hell, even Kiffin nor Sark were seasoned head coaches, and Orgeron (almost HC) had a terrible resume as a head coach. USC has taken its share of Donte-Williams-level gambles, no doubt.
    Back to your question: yes, he'll be in the mix, I think.
     
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  6. heyrev

    heyrev Junior Member


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    #26
    I don't understand why the "luck" thing is accepted as truth here. He was invited to interview; he blew away the committee with his passion, plan, and personality; he was offered the job and accepted it. How is that any different than other hiring processes when there are no guarantees of success, especially for coaching?! MG weighed risk/reward and made a wise decision. No luck, anymore than any other hire. To me, it was way luckier for USC that the Chargers wouldn't let Mike Riley leave!
     
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  7. Arhedge

    Arhedge Junior Member


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    #27
    I agree with all that, especially the Riley bit.

    The thing is, Garrett promised that he would hire a proven, college head coach. And he struck out on his efforts to do that. He was lucky in the sense that Carroll was both available and around (because his daughter was an athlete on campus). It's not like Garrett did a search and found a diamond in the rough. He failed to hire the guys he wanted and gave a courtesy interview to a dad who was in the area. (Slight exaggeration but only slight.) That being said, they apparently recognized that Pete had something special based on his interview, which was apparently (and believably) spectacular.
     
  8. Scalum76

    Scalum76 Junior Member


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    #28
    I agree but Folt let him go to the pro’s and unless she opens the pocket book I don’t think any top tier coaches would take the job. Remember top coaches didn’t come knocking the door down the last 3 opportunities SC had to hire a real head coach.
     
  9. Scalum76

    Scalum76 Junior Member


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    #29
    Were you here during the last 3 coaching searches? Who were the real top tier coaches that really wanted the job when Helton took the job or when Sarkisian was hired or how about when Kevin was hired who are these top guys that got turned down name them for me please I don’t remember.
     
  10. Trojack

    Trojack Junior Member


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    #30
    I was. I remember the 2010 search. I remember a friend inside HH telling me that Kyle Whittingham desperately wanted an interview and the school wouldn't give it to him and Kiffin ended up getting hired as a last resort because he was the only candidate who was willing to break his contract to come. I remember the contrived search for Sark (Haden was going to hire Sark no matter what). I remember there was NO search before they took the interim off of Helton's title. The next credible search we do for a HC will be the first in a long, long time and that's only because Bohn, as an outsider, doesn't automatically default to the "let's keep it in the family" bullshit.
     
  11. jacksonsf

    jacksonsf Junior Member


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    #31

    NOOOOOOOO. USC must hire a qualified, experienced, successful COLLEGIATE head football coach. No more experiments. There is a big jump from OC or DC to HC. There is an even bigger jump from DB coach to HC. No more risk. Get a sure thing.

    Here is a list: Matt Campbell, Billy Napier, Luke Fickell, Chris Petersen, Pat Fitzgerald, Bob Stoops. I am sure that others will emerge. Maybe Tom Allen. Just get a guy currently in a position. No assistants. No coordinators. No former USC greats.
     
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  12. jacksonsf

    jacksonsf Junior Member


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    #32
    Chris Petersen wanted the job yet Haden didn't like him
     
  13. Trojack

    Trojack Junior Member


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    #33
    The two I really like on that list are Fickell and Fitzgerald. Fickell because he can flat out coach and Fitzgerald because he will never make it to the top as long as they are in the same league as tOSU. Also, being at an "academic school" similar in nature to USC, he will have less trouble taking direction from outside the program.
     
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  14. Hockey10

    Hockey10 Junior Member


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    #34
    Were you. Trojack pretty much somed it up in his last post. We were just put on insane sanctions. Top HC's don't come knocking on your door under those conditions. LK still out recruited Helton. He got hired by Saban and he is a HC again. All things Helton will never do. Haden never really went after anyone else but CuttySark. Pedersen was doing great things at Boise St and as mentioned Kyle Whittingham wanted to come among others. Neither were ever considered. Again Sark went on to be hired by Saban and win a NC and again something Helton will never do. Then Hayden for whatever reason didn't consider anyone and promoted Helton based on his personality. No qualifications. There were never any real searches or interviews. Names like Jack Del Rio was always thrown out but not a real consideration. Now that Bohn is here and has a little bit of connections and AD abilities. Maybe Folt would be willing to let him conduct a real Head Coaching interviewing process and hire us a qualified HC.
     
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  15. USC92

    USC92 Points Member


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    #35
    I don't think they even really need a super star recruiter, just someone who can coach players up. The school, academics, location, tradition, etc recruit for themselves. If someone like Clay Helton can recruit any 4 or 5 start guys after his tenure I don't see how someone who knows how to actually coach football wouldn't be able to pull same or better talent.
     
  16. Wolfpack4SC

    Wolfpack4SC Points Member


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    #36
    I’m not necessarily saying anything about Helton, but rather USC as a program is way behind the eight ball on landing a top end coach at this point. I think USC needs to take a level headed look at their options rather than assume that there’s a line forming of quality coaches out there who want to come to USC. Meyer as stated by everyone, is not an option, because of conditions that still exist at USC - essentially too many alumni with opinions to allow a coach to come in and demand the head seat at the table. I would also put Campbell in that bucket as off the table because he’s clearly indicated he’s not going anywhere (I seem to recall his name has come up several times for very nice positions elsewhere and he has turned down every one). And with PC, there’s an old saying that goes “hindsight is always 20/20”. Projecting PC into the current situation is a bit of that. It also reminds me a lot of JR2 which turned into a train wreck. All of that gets back to the now agreed upon idea that no one is a sure thing. Is Fickell a sure thing? I’m not so sure.

    Take Helton out of the picture because I don’t think there’s anything new to talk about there. He is who he is and who is in the driver’s seat right now. I also really don’t think that it’s productive to beat on your head coach publicly like USC fans are notorious for. All that creates is a very difficult environment for a new coach to find his feet which is one of the biggest reasons I think it can actually be better to hire from within...at least until the program becomes competitive as a whole. I think the best case scenario is to fire Helton mid-season leaving an assistant to finish the season with a mission (a la Orgeron). It’s been done at a number of programs and has frequently resulted in more wins and an improvement the team as a whole all the while putting the program into the spotlight for upcoming coaches who are looking for a change.

    As for recruits, again USC really needs to take off the rose colored glasses. It has been some time since anyone on the west coast has matched the draw of the top teams of the SEC, the Big-10, the Big-12, or even the ACC/Clemson. Other than the draw of staying home, all of those conferences have invested in their programs with top media deals (exposure for anyone wanting to take their career to the next level), and the top programs all feature staff and facilities that USC has only recently started to approach. USC actually has an uphill battle at winning over the top recruits in the nation which is why it’s really important to have a proven recruiter first and foremost for that top spot.

    I love to support this program but it becomes so frustrating to keep going down this same path with myopic fans yelling all the way how USC has such an edge on every team in the world if only for the right coach. In my experience it doesn’t work like that, and typically the coaching is frequently secondary to having the fertile ground to build upon.
     
  17. Hockey10

    Hockey10 Junior Member


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    #37
    I keep reading post about our recruiting grounds not being what they were but take a look at the last 3 years. Scouts has Korey F. #1 , Bryce Y. #2, and kayvon T. #2 overall. All Southern Cal. players and that's just for starters. That's just a building block. There's plenty of other top players in CA. and on the West Coast. If a HC who knew how to win and build a program came here he would have plenty of talent to work with. The talent is here and when you start winning talent from everywhere else will start committing too.
     
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  18. Scalum76

    Scalum76 Junior Member


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    #38
    Awesome post I appreciate all you guys commenting on the issue of what the new USC football coach should be, could be, needs to be, good points from all posters.
     
  19. Cardinal&Gold

    Cardinal&Gold Junior Member


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    #39
    Hey Rev, with all due respect. Pete Carroll was not some scrub that walked off the street wet behind the ears and was given the job. He was very qualified. This is a common Misconception about Pete Carroll.

    Below is his resume:

    Pete Carroll had NFL Head coaching experience with 2 teams The NY Jets (1994)
    New England Patriots (1997-1999) before taking the USC HC job.

    In addition Pete had experience as a DC in both college and the NFL. If you look at his resume: It's nothing like D. Williams A.) He's never had a coaching position in the NFL. B.) He's never even been a defensive coordinator in college. He would be jumping from a position coach to head coach.

    You could argue that Pete Carroll did not have alot of success as a NFL head coach and that was why he was seen as a risky hire. (Neither did Nick Saban, google his NFL resume). I'll buy that.

    We're there better options at the time? Bigger names? Sure. That's what the fan base was hoping for.

    As far as John Robinson and John McKay, both had solid football backgrounds coming in, just not HC experience but both had long tenures with their college programs which allowed them to watch and learn:

    John Robinson was an assistant @ Oregon for 11 years, OC @ USC for 2 and RB coach in the NFL before taking the HC job @ USC:
    His resume

    John McKay was an assistant @ Oregon for 8 years and 1 at USC before taking the HC job. He had no HC experience but he had a circle of fiends that included NFL coaches Chuck Knox and Dick Vermil so he was surrounded by great football minds. That's some serious company to keep.

    1950–1958 Oregon (assistant)
    1959 USC (assistant)
    1960–1975 USC
    1976–1984 Tampa Bay Buccaneer

    My point is this:

    D. Williams is no where near as qualified as: John Robinson, John McKay and Pete Carroll we're. Williams has never been at a job more than 2 years and each stop was as position coach. He has yet to hold a OC or DC position. The dude picks up and leaves jobs just about every year. Reward that? How about showing you can stay in one place longer than 24 months.


    If the Clay Helton era comes to an end after 7 years, it's going to be a real hard sell to bring in another learning on the job coach and give him the standard 3 years to rebuild after missing on Clay. I actually think D. Williams cousin is more qualified Kris Richards who coached in the NFL with Seattle and the Dallas cowboys.

    Maybe a Kris Richards head coach D. Williams DC combo makes more sense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  20. Cardinal&Gold

    Cardinal&Gold Junior Member


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    #40
    Just for fun, Let's look how the hiring of assistants with no HC experience is going.

    Dave Aranda
    [​IMG]
    Current position
    Title
    Head coach
    Team Baylor
    Conference Big 12
    Record 2–7


    [​IMG]

    Jimmy Lake
    Current position
    Title
    Head coach
    Team Washington
    Conference Pac-12
    Record 3–1
    Annual salary $3 million

    Beat a 0-5 Arizona
    Beat a 2-5 Oregon State
    Beat a 3-2 Utah
    5-12 combined record of the teams they beat:

    Lost to the best team they played
    Stanford 4-2
    *sound familar?

    [​IMG]

    Tyson Helton
    Current position
    Title
    Head coach
    Team Western Kentucky
    Conference C-USA
    Record 14–11

    Having Gomer like seasons. What he needs is a Slovis or Sam Darnold to save his career and a bag of game balls to give out.
     
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